Allow me to continue being the honest one in this exchange and at least reply to the new topic you have introduced. I HAVE in fact “humbled myself” several times in the past to take jobs I am over qualified for. That started in early sobriety at year 2 extending to year 4. Then I got a job I was perfect for,however they offered a starting salary that was 300 dollars less than I was being paid 5 years earlier. But at the time I was a true believer and remaining humble to a loving and merciful god, I GLADLY accepted the work. And today, I am unemployed yes again. The difference today in (1) I am 45 and no one hires 45 year olds to do entry level or no skills work. and (2) I do not beleive in a loving god.

That’s not enough of an answer to placate most readers I know. And there will be no placating manchap as the only answer he will ever accept is the “12 steps work and I havent done them correctly”. But he’s not getting that answer because I will not lie to my blog audience.

I will however close this comment with a promise: I will begin writing a new post telling my 16 year story in AA and sobriety. THEN Manchap can do what many of the AA people I know in person do - INGNORE what happened and simply ask “Have you tried the steps, humility and prayer?”.

I sat through his stuggles, not always with a smile on his face, but with some way to try to keep a good attitude about it. I remember how excited he was to get a position with a large medical marketing firm, and how he hung in there until it was supposed to get better.

Unfortunately, his personality can put a damper on his skills, as he’s from the lEast Coast and has that sardonic sort of sense of humor that not everyone appreciates. I doubt that his personality ever got in the way of him performing his duties competently, though.

Hey Harry, remember all that Novell stuff that we tried to study way back when? What a laugher, eh?

Your mileage may vary. As has Harry’s. You don’t know Harry. You don’t know the trials he’s gone through. He has never quit. (Although he did whine a bit). And not that it’s a big deal, but he’s done everything you suggested, and had a great attitude doing it.

Being humble is sometimes overrated. I’ve seen people be humble when they had great skills.

Maybe you have some other comments that are real life suggestions?

88-89 is the time when my addictions got the better of me. And it was time for rehab and being sober.

Then the fellowship and the steps were my new direction, and the new Harry began to work with God.

What ever you might have thought of my east coast ways when we met, I ASSURE you it wasnt anything close to how I was when I first got off the boat from Jersey.

And we all know where thats landed me.

Hey Eric, go read the comment Manchap put up in “Why donate”. Notice the tactic he uses in not continuing his theme of Humilty HERE in this thread so it looks like no ones answered him.

You just know this character has 8 years of sobriety, was working his ‘humble jobs’ for all of a year or two and now he’s back in the profession he did before sobriety. Let’s see if he answers my challenge to type his story.

I just love he holy people don’t you?

This is like those “private” conversations that we have outside a meeting, when someone walks up, hears a snippet of the conversation, and then pipes in with “Well, you should just do (fill-in-the-blank)” without really having enough information to make that “suggestion”.

And then, 2 days later, the do-gooder asks “Hey, how did you with (whatever-the-issue-was)? Did you (fill-in-the-blank)?”

I’m sure that this well-meaning person will figure out that it’s more important to live a life worthy of the humility that he claims to have. (After all, you “can’t transmit something you haven’t got”) However, in all my experience, humility means a) not knowing everything and b) not having the answers for people that you don’t know.

See told ya I knew who this was.
PLEASE! You of all people are preaching how having humility is the answer?! What would YOU know about being humbled??

Ok everyone listen up our preacher man here has NOT ONE TEST in sobriety. Everyfuckingthing this guy has tried has happened. NO TRIALS. NO TESTS.

Were my daily prayers the wrong ones? Were my daily meetings the wrong meetings? Were my service committments the wrong ones? Were his all the right ones?

Or maybe the solution of God and Humility as the answer is only the answer for racist republicans who arent put to the tests of life in the first place.

And you STILL HAVEN’T posted your story chappy - let the folks here know Harry (by the way my real name) is full of shit by showing them how your journey in sobriety is a testiment to God and the steps.

I’ve become pretty sensitive to steppism lately, with the program-speak (”pity party” - what the heck does THAT mean?). Sure, the steps work for ME. That doesn’t mean they work for everyone. Let common sense prevail, rather than the panacea of 12 steps…

Harry, since you do “know it all” according to Doc Manchap, why not get work as a “know it all”? It probably pays pretty well. LOL

Wow, maybe 20 years of slow-briety will give ME the right to diagnose people, too. Whaddya think? Nah, I wouldn’t want the responsibility.

I agree AA isn’t for everyone, but you just sound like a bitter whiner, really. I mean, why do you think the 12 steps would guarantee anything? Why are you neccessarily entitled to success? I can understand your disappointment, but you have not yet (after pages and pages) explained how AA has caused any of your problems.
For most people in AA,(myself included) I can safely say they have received the simple gift of getting to stay alive and out of jail. Anything after that- they have the same chances as anyone. Where is there a promise in AA of financial success and popularity? I’m broke and I don’t like most of the people I know in AA. Yet it has given me many many gifts. I don’t blame AA for being laid off. I don’t blame AA for most the people being unhappy (MOST regular folks don’t seem too happy to me).
Sure there are the GROUPTHINK meetings. They remind me of high school where everyone wants desperately to fit in. I go there and say what I think and they don’t like it and I don’t really care. I want new people to know they have choices. Then I go to the rare meetings where people actually walk the walk (so I guess I agree with that complaint of yours as well). It’s not any deficiency in the 12 steps, it’s the weaknesses of people who claim they worl them when they don’t. How can the spiritual 12 steps be wrong? Clean house and help others….hunh? If you honestly think that can screw up your life, I think there’s something seriously wrong with you that hasnothing to do with alcoholism at all. NO offense, but I suspect your self pity, expectations (of money, love, etc) and overall sense of entitlement might be putting a lot of people off.

ummm I dunno? Ah maybe its cuz I have READ THE BOOK? You might have heard of this page there they like to call THE PROMISES?

And yes I am whining, bitter, resentful, and putting people off. I am happily at a new stage of life where I do not give a fuck who does not like what I have to say. As long as I tell the truth about what happened and how it happened, then I am good with what I am doing on the blog.

Well I really didnt want you to have to think. there is a whole posting telling you (well telling those who read the postings) that in fact THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE FUCKED UP (aka something seriously wrong that has nothing to do with……..) are those people who will get their lives ruined by the 4th step and the rest of the uncover/discover steps.

THAT IS MY POINT. I was raised to be a worthless fuckup and a source of embarassment, and when I reached a point in my childhood that I began to reject those teachings, I embarked on a DYSFUNCTIONAL way of living which SAVED MY LIFE. Well actually GAVE me a life. there is a whole posting on this topic.

Telling me I am some fucked up angry bitter dude aint hurting my cause. It helps it. AA created that person. Well more acturately put, AA and its steps helped resurrect that fucked up bitter kid that those who raised me created.

Pity party was two years ago. You missed it. this is the search and destroy party.

You are almost right. YES there is a deficiency in the 12 steps. I posted much information on this topic. But you are mostly right in that there are many people who claim to work the steps but actually dont. However you seem to imply its just those members who display bad behavior that do this. It’s not. In fact a main pillar of my resentment against the AA Fellowship are those who are living that better life saying that it is all because of the 12 steps and a relationship with god. That’s the lie that can hurt and destroy lives. Do some more reading here on the blog and you will see how those lies can cause damage.

We dont need to remember it because I say it in one of the first postings I placed here. Look at this posting……..

RE:“but it’s not the look of death that you see when you work a 4th step.”

No its not. unless you are one of the alcoholics like me. Then the 4th step is worse than an actual physical killing. But once again, we need not wonder what the heck does harry mean because I wrote about who can get away with doing a 4th step and who will the fourth step ruin. Not one but 2 postings on the topic.

RE: “but remember that your truth is not their truth.”

That’s very poetic. Completely untrue, but still very poetic. And of course it is 100 percent AA-speak.

No sorry, it IS THE TRUTH. Not My truth, THE TRUTH. Now you might be right that it may be my experiences, and not their experiences, but the truth is the truth. I did the steps, all of them. FOR well over a decade. I prayed, on my knees, for eight years. In fact EVERY DAY, praying on my knee’s. I did service work at the meeting and disctrict level for years. ALL THREE SIDES of the triangle were worked as instructed. And after 12 years of working the program and 16 years of staying sober, I just do not tell you, but demontrate and prove that the 16 years prior to my sobriety date are far and away mor successful and happpier than the 16 years following my sobriety date.

RE: “Lets be real clear here, this is an “honesty program” “
Yes it is selfproclaimed as an honesty program. Much in the same way Frank Herbert’s book DUNE describes whole planets and entire economic systems. The way the book LORD OF THE RINGS described Middle Earth and its agricultural way of life. But if no one in the 12 step fellowship does anything other than read the book and proclaim how wonderful the book is, well then that way of life is nothing more than wishful thinking.

My experiences, what I have heard and witnessed at meetings and from the members of the local fellowship has shown me only one thing: those rules of success that help the outside world prosper are the only rules that help fellowship members prosper. If you dont drink or use, you dont die.  But if you want more out of life than just one more day of breathing air, aka a life worth living, then you will need to follow the same rules that the rest of the north american follows.

In sixteen years, I have NEVER MET a person who became or remained successful by ONLY using the steps.

And i know plenty of so-called normies that have worse lives than i did on my worst bender.

…that the 12 steps are only a means to an end. Not a way of life

You do know that you are in direct conflict with what is written in the Big Book?

In any case, I dont disagree with anything you said. I would have ten or 15 years ago, being the devote faithful AA guy I was tuaght to be. But today, I agree with you. The 12 steps are a means to an end; specifically to becoming a full member of AA and thus allowing you to move up the social ladder of the fellowship.